When Joseph Conway, from Vita Health Group, joined us, we peeled back the layers of men's mental health to uncover the challenges and triumphs within. This episode takes you through the thick fog of societal expectations and cultural norms that have long silenced men's cries for help, spotlighting why these issues are no longer lurking in the shadows but seizing our urgent attention. Reflecting on my own path, we discuss how the silent rules of manhood have shaped us and the stigmas we face when mental health knocks on our doors. Joseph's insights reveal the hidden costs of misdiagnosed or ignored mental health concerns and the indispensable role of awareness and accessible support in changing the narrative.
When Joseph Conway, from Vita Health Group, joined us, we peeled back the layers of men's mental health to uncover the challenges and triumphs within. This episode takes you through the thick fog of societal expectations and cultural norms that have long silenced men's cries for help, spotlighting why these issues are no longer lurking in the shadows but seizing our urgent attention. Reflecting on my own path, we discuss how the silent rules of manhood have shaped us and the stigmas we face when mental health knocks on our doors. Joseph's insights reveal the hidden costs of misdiagnosed or ignored mental health concerns and the indispensable role of awareness and accessible support in changing the narrative.
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Speaker 2:Yes, hello. It's time for another of the Making People Better podcasts, all part of a series with some great advice from many of the Vita Health Group experts. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Glenn Thompson, my job to host this series, along with a variety of guests and experts from Vita. Now we tackle a whole range of subjects which we hope you find very beneficial. Vita Health Group works by providing integrated physical and mental health services to employers, insurers, the NHS and, of course, private patients as well. Today's podcast is all about men's mental health, and mental health, as we all know, seems to be more and more prevalent and is constantly under the spotlight, and more so, I think, since the COVID pandemic. So, to discuss the topic, I'm joined today by Joseph Conway, who's a mental health trainer at Vita Health Group. Joseph, thanks for joining us. How do we find you? Yeah, hi, glenn.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me Nice to have you on board.
Speaker 2:So you're a mental health trainer then, which means, I'm guessing, you do a lot of work from home. Obviously, during COVID you did, but now you're telling me, before we came on air today, that you're diving all over the country. You sound like a busy guy.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah, very busy, glenn. So traveling up and down the country delivering different training courses, workshops, webinars on common mental health topics to help organisations, large and small, address some of those issues and difficulties that people are having with their mental health, to hopefully try and raise awareness.
Speaker 2:I said during the intro there, joseph, that it's constantly under the spotlight. Now You're hearing a lot of mental health problems, new stories in the news, on the television, on the radio, in the papers. Glenn, I mentioned that it's more prevalent since the COVID pandemic. I mean, would that be the case? Would you agree with that? I'd say so, for sure, definitely.
Speaker 3:I would also say that we've always had mental health problems. They've always been there just the same as we have physical health. It's always been a part of us as human beings, but definitely more so in the spotlight because it's been difficult times for everyone. We've gone through COVID, various lockdowns and restrictions. We've all been affected by that in different ways, coming out of that now into a cost of living crisis.
Speaker 2:How does somebody know, then, when they have a mental health issue? How do family members know when somebody is suffering from mental health problems?
Speaker 3:Good, point, glenn. I think that's why this conversation is so important today. The training that I do is so important, because a lot of time people don't recognise that they have a problem. They just put it down to normal life, that they have to get through and be strong, or, in the case of men, man up and get on with it and don't realise that there is a problem.
Speaker 2:OK, well, quite a bit to get through today on the podcast then, joe. So we'll ask, first of all, the common mental health challenges that specifically affect men, and how do they differ from those experienced by women?
Speaker 3:I'd say, first of all, mental health challenges. They can affect individuals of all genders and it is important to note that these challenges, they can vary greatly between individuals, so not all people the same as not all men will experience them in the same way. But when it comes to mental health, there's generally no fundamental differences between males and females in terms of those types of mental health conditions. But what I would say is, the differences then come down to other factors, and this can be societal influences that contribute to those variations in their prevalence and also expression of mental health conditions between men and women. And quite often, Glenn, it's those gender norms that can negatively impact on men's mental health. And you see that in many cultures as well, that men have traditionally been encouraged to adhere to those societal norms of masculinity, which often discourages those emotional vulnerabilities and seeking help for mental health issues and that leaves those underreporting or misdiagnosis of certain conditions in men.
Speaker 2:It's true to say, isn't it and I've had this conversation with various other members of your colleagues over the past few months that guys, particularly we're really bad when it comes to describing how we feel. You know, we don't say I've got a problem. You know, I don't sort of sit down with my wife and say, you know, I've got this issue, I've got that issue, and we're bad at going to the doctors, particularly, aren't we the GP, and we sort of hold back from that. Why do you think that is? Why have we got this barrier that prevents men, particularly, from talking about how they feel?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there is isn't there. I see that all the time in my work and, like you say, you've experienced it yourself and I would say in my experience it's that stigma and no stereotypes that play a massive part in men's mental health and that big barrier to reach out for support. You know, of course, there's been great improvements in that and, like you say, there's a spotlight on it. We talk about it more. We're here talking about it for men's mental health week, but there are still those traditional notions of masculinity that often then discourage men from seeking help or even expressing vulnerability in the first place. Quite often men feel that pressure to appear quite strong, independent and in control of their emotions. So, seeking any kind of help that you say physical, but especially for your mental health, that can be perceived as a sign of weakness or even failure, which then leads to that shame or reluctance to reach out in the first place.
Speaker 2:And what about the unique challenges then, Joe, or indeed the barriers that men face when seeking help for their mental health?
Speaker 3:I would say in regards to those barriers there, it's that sense of shame, you know, going against their pride. They have to reach out and say, actually I'm not okay at the moment or I'm really struggling. And that can be incredibly difficult if you don't have the words to be able to articulate that property, to explain your feelings to someone else, and then what can often happen is then that leads to more harmful coping strategies to manage that stress or numb emotions or even mask any visible symptoms.
Speaker 2:And is it like a cold? Mental health problems? If you do feel that you have an issue and you've spoken about it, is it like a cold? Does it eventually get better or does it get worse? Or does it depend on the individual and the circumstances?
Speaker 3:Really, good question there, because if you had a cold, you'd address it, wouldn't you? You do something about it, you'd take some medicine, you'd rest for a bit and you're trying to recharge and recuperate and heal yourself physically, wouldn't you? And most people know, when you said, oh, a cold to me, I can recognise that straight away, I can relate to it, I can understand it, and there's almost this natural progression of healing there, isn't there? Whereas if you said to me, oh Joe, I'm struggling today with my mental health or I'm feeling anxious and I don't know why, what does that mean? What does that look like for you? And that's quite scary, isn't it to say out loud to someone else because you don't really know what it is yourself and you worry about the other person not knowing how to?
Speaker 2:handle it either. In your experience then, Joe, what are some effective strategies or therapeutic approaches that can actually help men address their mental health concerns?
Speaker 3:What is loads of different strategies out there, and then different therapeutic approaches can help too, but it is important to remember that each person is individual again. So, a bit like that cold example, we all maybe take the same medicine over the counter to medicine to make that cold letter we've made to have. That could be very different. So it's important to explore different approaches to find what works best for you. And then just because one doesn't work for you doesn't mean they're all going to be useless. It's important to be able to keep trying to find that one that does so for me, for example. I'm a person-centered therapist myself and I genuinely believe that we all have this inherent capacity for self-awareness and direction, but I never perceive myself to be an expert on anyone's experiences in the world. Just there to listen attentively, without judgment or interpretation, simply seeking to understand the client's subjective experience in that safe space that allows men to express their emotions or gain insight, or even developing coping strategies to help work towards their goals.
Speaker 2:And it's important to talk about it, isn't it as well and I touched on it earlier the fact that a lot of guys don't talk about it. We sort of keep it to ourselves. It's like you know, it's not the masculine thing to admit that you've got a bit of a problem mentally, but it is so important to talk to family, to friends. You know, if you can't talk to your family, talk to your friends and vice versa. It's so important to get it out there, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Oh, definitely. But you know, I've seen it work first hand, how effective it can be and what a difference it can make. So, talking to friends and family, like you say, but from my perspective of seeing clients or seeing men come to therapy and reaching out for support, and that biggest hurdle sometimes is getting to that first session. So that's recognising that there's an issue and then having the courage to reach out for support. And that's where there does need to be a bit of autonomy there, because no one should be forced to interfere with being against their will because it's just not going to work.
Speaker 3:What's that saying? Like you know, oh, you take a horse to water but you can't make a drink. Same kind of thing here. And I see that quite often, glenn as well, over the years of men coming to therapy, and it's a case of, oh, I'm only here because my wife wants to be here, or my girlfriend or my mom said I need to come to therapy. My boss says I need therapy. And you know that can be OK too, because that might be that way in for some people. And I've usually found that once they've experienced some of those necessary, sufficient conditions for positive personality change, they decide to continue and benefit, but, like I say, it's always individualized.
Speaker 2:Your partner says go see the doctor. Can I have a chap? Yeah, and you go along and you say my wife or my partner says I need to be here. You never admit to yourself I know I need to be here.
Speaker 1:It's not what I mean.
Speaker 2:I know I need to be here. I've got a problem. I want to talk about it. What about notable trends or patterns, Joe, that you've observed in the mental health concerns over men? I mean, what sort of trends have you found?
Speaker 3:Probably say the biggest one that always jumps out to me are the suicide rates in men. Men have consistently higher rates of dying by suicide compared to women, and, you know, men are three times more likely to die by suicide than women. Now, I don't know the definitive answer to why, but what I do find interesting is that when you look at the number of adults who have reported having considered suicide at some point during their life and the number of adults in England who have made a suicide attempt at some point in their lives, now both of those numbers are higher in women and they are men, which surprises me.
Speaker 2:I always thought it was the other way around. Was it the other way around at one point? Was it affecting more men than women?
Speaker 3:Men are still dying by suicide more, but women are talking about it more. So that says to me that women are discussing suicide and the suicide of force. Now, men aren't necessarily. Maybe yet more men are still dying by suicide and we don't necessarily know of these men who have died by suicide or had those thoughts, or if they've made attempts previously. Perhaps they did, maybe they didn't tell anyone, we don't know.
Speaker 2:Friends, family, workplace, community, or play a big part, don't they, in men's mental health. In your opinion, what role do those elements play? We've touched on it briefly earlier. It's important to talk about it, but they do play a big part, don't they?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, for sure, and they play a big role in supporting but also in raising awareness and making it OK not to be OK.
Speaker 3:So we want to be able to change that culture, which can be in workplace. There's also friendship groups and mal-frenchia groups, communities where reaching out for support shouldn't be condemned and not shamed, but actually commended, I'd say, seeking any kind of help to address any concerns of your mental health. It's a sign of strength and quite often here this misconception that to be strong and resilient means you don't need support from anyone else, and I'd probably disagree with that. Resilient people make use of those support networks around them, and that can be really hard for men for the reasons we already mentioned. But also sometimes I see that lack of awareness, and that could be awareness of self, but also limited knowledge about common mental health conditions, those early warning signs or not coping or having visible symptoms or knowing what available treatment is out there, and this lack of awareness can then make it difficult for them to recognize their own mental health issues or even understand when to reach out for support.
Speaker 2:What would you say? Again, this is something we sort of scratched on earlier the signs, the early signs of maybe having a few issues. Would it be things like anxiety, not sleeping well at night? You know you're waking up halfway through the night worrying about things. I mean, a lot of folk are worrying more at the moment because the cost of living crisis. You know, a lot of folk can't afford to buy food, they can't afford to pay the bills. That all adds to the anxiety and the stress. Would you say those are possibly early signs?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, definitely again, for sure. And if you break those early warning signs up into four separate areas, it would often present in our thoughts, feelings and our behaviors and then, when you can see that happening there, you can see someone's behaviors. Maybe you can see their body reactions Sorry, I've got to mention the fourth one body reactions but you can see their body reactions, you can see their behaviors, but you can't always necessarily see someone's thoughts or feelings, can you? The only way you're ever going to know what someone's thinking or feeling is by asking them, having that conversation, and then for that person to then have an opportunity to say, no, actually I'm not okay, or I'm really worrying about this, or I'm not sleeping very well at the moment.
Speaker 2:On the subject of suicide, and you should say that the numbers are increasing, quite notably at the moment. I mean, do you have any good news stories that you know you might have turned somebody around from ending their life to living a happy life?
Speaker 3:So fairly odd. In my career, I worked with a young guy who decided to take his own life and jump off a multi-story car park. Now, this wasn't a cry for help. He intended to die that day. He went and he did it, but he survived. And do you know what his first thought was the moment he was in the air? He didn't want to die, wow yeah, and it really shocked me and it stuck with me ever since. So he jumped he jumped but he survived.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah.
Speaker 3:He jumped. He landed on the ground, so very severely injured. Obviously he took a lot of time and recovery to build back up again, but he survived, good grief. That's incredible, but he had the instant regret of when he'd done it. Now we worked together for a very long time and eventually he got to a place of acceptance and contentment with life, of just being in the moment and being able to look to the future with a more positive outlook. Now the thing is Glenn. This guy has struggled for years with his mental health.
Speaker 2:And you worked with him. You say on the lead up to it yes, yes, I did so. You knew him quite well, not?
Speaker 3:on the lead up to it, sorry, no. So I met him after, right Before leading up to it. He had never sought support for his mental health before, so he'd never even spoken to anyone openly about how he felt before or what was going on internally for him. He had this all building up on him. He was taking all this pressure on board, and then it got to a stage where he decided to take that action that day, and then, when he'd done it, he instantly regretted it.
Speaker 2:And he remembers that as he was falling, he remembers that switch in his mind.
Speaker 3:That was his fault yeah, incredible, and that was his fault. And then after that, that was it. He then obviously needed support. He recognised that himself and he wanted to change because he didn't want to die. He could recognise that he had that drive to survive.
Speaker 2:And did he admit to you that had he spoken about his problems with somebody, it might have prevented him from taking that action in the first place?
Speaker 3:Definitely he would have had an out, he would have been able to express his emotions of what was going on for him. But in the environment that he was and I'm sure you would probably be able to recognise a guy like this a young guy. He came from a and this is his description of it a completely normal, stable family. He had a group of close friends, a job, on-off relationship, but fairly stable, with a girl that he's known since school, and he would even himself describe his life as a loving, caring environment. But one know that you never really talk openly about thoughts or feelings and you would never dare do that when he was out with his friends at all. It just didn't happen, and I think that's a common for a lot of boys and young men and men, old men and men growing up and experiencing the world is that we don't talk about what's going on for us inside. It's very true, yeah.
Speaker 3:And he said it before that he would experience that and see people begin to say something or bring something to the table that didn't conform to this idea of macho norms, and it would be instantly ridiculed or put down or at least just brushed off and ignored. So, for years, all of those worries that he had internally, his insecurities, his fears, he never told anyone because he believed he couldn't and he didn't. He didn't feel he had a voice to be able to speak up. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so important to talk. So important to talk about how you're feeling. I mean, we all get down days, don't we? We wake up in the morning and we just cannot focus. We don't really want to carry on with the day, just want to crawl back into bed and stay there for the whole day, but I guess it's until that mental health starts to control your life.
Speaker 3:You need to do something about it, but then also to be able to normalize that as well, Glenn, that some of those thoughts and feelings are completely okay and then normal. So to recognize it into owner. It's okay to struggle from time to time because, well, life is hard and it isn't fair that every human being on the planet experiences hardships. So, of course, yeah, some more than others definitely, but there are still problems in everyone's life and you're not alone in that pain.
Speaker 2:What advice would you give to men who may be hesitant or unsure about seeking help for their mental health and well-being? Joe.
Speaker 3:And see that so often as well, glenn. So, like I say to everyone I speak to, not just in my professional life, but in my personal life as well to reach out and to talk. You know, that can be an incredibly scary concept for some people, and like that person I mentioned earlier on, not feeling able to be able to do that, but this is why, glenn, we all have a responsibility in the way that we are, before it gets to a stage of crisis. So the way that we talk about mental health, or should be able to be safe enough to be able to talk about our own mental health, gives it an open platform then to say, okay, glenn's struggling today, next week, if I'm struggling, then that's okay for me to say that too, Because if we're ever going to overcome these challenges, it's crucial to promote mental health awareness and challenge some of those societal stereotypes and gender norms that we mentioned earlier on. You know we need to encourage men to seek support without judgment.
Speaker 2:Would you say first port of call if you do have a problem, you feel you need to talk to somebody would be obviously a family member if you can talk to them, but GP doctor, of course yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3:There's so many different support avenues out there, so speaking to someone you trust would be a really good port of call. First of all, yeah, could be friends, family, maybe a colleague, a manager you trust, your GP, other professional services. There's so many groups out there now to be able to access support from through the community.
Speaker 2:Alright show that's great. Before you disappear today, just a quick one. I mean, mental health is something we're talking about more and more, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, but will it ever go away? Is it something that will disappear? Or we stuck with men's mental health or mental health generally now, do you think, forever?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, we will be stuck with it, because it will always be a pathos. Glenn, definitely so. It's never going to go away. Just the same as we'll always have issues with our physical health, there'll be concerns of our mental health, but what we're trying to do here is raise that awareness that that is completely normal. So, just the same as having a cold or sickness and diarrhea or any other reason while you might be physically unwell, the same as that can happen to your mental health as well.
Speaker 3:So we can recognise it and address it.
Speaker 2:Alright, and, of course, vita, have some great tips and advice on their website as well, details of that coming up in just a moment. Joseph, it's been great talking to you. It's a subject we can talk about, as you've mentioned, of air all day, because it is your area of speciality, and it's something that you're very passionate about, isn't it? Mental health.
Speaker 3:And yeah, it's something I talk about all the time and I encourage other people to talk about it all the time. If I'm having a bad day, I let people know, and that's what we should all be able to do, even if we can't explain it, just to be able to say to people oh, I'm really struggling at the moment. You don't need to be a therapist, glenn, to respond to that, but even something as simple of I don't know what to say right now, but I'm just so glad you told me.
Speaker 2:I think also, joseph, if you know somebody pretty well, you know when they're acting differently, you know when they're behaving differently, you can maybe just say to them you know, are you okay, is everything okay? Because I've got a couple of mates who I've seen mood swings in and I've always said to them is everything okay? And they sort of open up, they do talk more. You know, be observant of people you're with is important, isn't it as well? Oh, definitely.
Speaker 3:And sometimes that could be hard, though, for the observer as well in a way, because they don't know what to do next or they're scared to open up a kind of worms.
Speaker 3:But what I find can be really effective of working with men and especially many might be resistant to therapy or talking about their emotions and I've done this in my professional life, but also my personal life as well is to blend that in with physical activity and exercise. So we all know that engaging in regular physical activity can have those positive effects on our mental health because it makes you feel good, it releases endorphins, reduces stress, improves our mood. But just getting outside it gives us a break from the stresses of life. So you can say to someone do you fancy going for a walk and a talk, a bit of a catch up, and then just being beside someone. It can reduce that self-consciousness and help people to know open up a bit more. Just focusing on one foot in front of another. It's not as intense as sitting in front of someone in a room in that almost formal meeting sense.
Speaker 2:Great advice. Thanks very much, joseph. Fascinating conversation and one we could, as I say, bring back time and time again, and I'm sure we will in the future and talk to you good self as well.
Speaker 2:But Joseph Conway, mental health trainer at Vita Health Group, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. Thank you very much for having me, glenn. It's been great to talk to you. You've been listening to the Men's Mental Health podcast today. It's all part of Making People Better, or part of the Vita Health podcast series. I'm Glenn Thompson. Look forward to your company next time. Take care.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this Making People Better podcast, part of the Wellbeing series from Vita Health Group. Improving your lives, physically and mentally, drives everything we do, and getting you back to doing what you love is our priority. Vita Health Group Making People Better wwwVitaHealthGroupcouk.